HGG Community Forums

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 27, 2019 1:48 AM

I am not entirely familiar with how the game coding works- I know it is meant to be as true to life as possible so just wanted to check- are roan and extension linked on here? If so, is there link breakage occasionally following real life examples?

Salvistar · Mar 27, 2019 3:48 AM

I feel like I have seen somewhere that we do have gene linkage programmed into the game to mimic real life. But I could be misremembering. I do believe though that if Ammit bothered to code linkage in the first place she would have coded a chance of link breakage occurring as well. So I would bet we have both or neither.

Probably the only person who could 100% answer this question for sure is Ammit herself.

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 27, 2019 4:54 AM

That makes sense to me! I figured that would be the case and it certainly is something I can test using breedings but figured J could take the easy way out by asking haha :)

OndowaStables · Mar 27, 2019 11:12 AM

Extension and Kit (which includes roan, tobiano, sabino and white) definitely are linked in the game and there is a possibility of crossover breaking the link. Several years ago one of the players did a breeding experiment proving both, and I decided to repeat it, just this season. I hadn't posted my results yet since so far I only have 20 foals and haven't gotten a crossover foal yet. All my mares were eE KitRKitTo. Here are my stallions. The linked genes are included in their names, and you can see their foals from their Family tab.

GeneLink eW3EW2 SunHarbor

GeneLinkEM eTo SerpentSea

kintara · Mar 27, 2019 11:47 AM

Crossover is extremely rare in real life, I can't remember what the real life odds were, but it has been proven time and time again they are much lower than expected. I've never noticed a crossover in the game but haven't looked out for it either, plus of course we can gmt. The KIT/extension linkage certainly exists in the game though (which includes roan)

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 27, 2019 1:37 PM

Perfect that is exactly what I wanted to know! I like knowing exactly what kind of genotype I will most likely get in a foal and being able to know what is linked is a big help. Thank you everyone!

Kintara, I find it to be the opposite with KIT/extension crossover happening more frequently. Statistically it is not common (only 7% chance of it happening in every breeding cross- 7% chance for sire and 7% for dam), I concede, but not as rare as one might think. I have seen quite a few horses with link breakage as well as seen other horses posted on a fantastic genetic group with link breakage suspected due to parent colors and progeny. I think the reason why it is considered rare is because the average Joe is not going to test every KIT positive horse they own and so the sample size is small and only noticed when progeny is produced that does not fit the expected phenotype for KIT and Extension AND even then I suspect many more fall through the cracks because Average Joe doesn’t realize how extension, agouti, and kit go pretty much hand in hand and might not understand when something is off (Holy Guacamole Batman talk about a run on sentence).

Just something I’ve observed over the years and I certainly could be wrong (and would welcome education if so)! I so enjoy discussing horse genetics!

I am excited though that there is linkage on game! I love black and red roans and definitely am sneaking some into the barn haha :)

SpryOfJune · Mar 27, 2019 1:43 PM

It's official.... I'm very confused. :))

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 27, 2019 2:16 PM

Spry, it can be confusing to get your head around at first! What do you not understand? I can elaborate further if wanted!

:))

HTRanch · Mar 27, 2019 2:39 PM

@SpryofJune, I also was confused. This webpage was helpful:

https://colorgenetics.info/general/genetic-linkage

SpryOfJune · Mar 27, 2019 5:00 PM

@TheFoggyMoors, it was everything. But the link @BRAnch supplied was quite helpful! Thanks, both of you!

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 27, 2019 5:32 PM

Awesome- I read the page provided by HTRanch and it pretty much hit the nail on the head.

SpryOfJune · Mar 27, 2019 5:41 PM

Awesome!

kintara · Mar 28, 2019 12:29 AM

The breed I have nearly everyone colour tests, and I don't know of even one linkage break yet! One of the bigger colour groups on FB was trying to track a heaps of them and breakage was much lower than 7%. Low enough that it isn't worth considering in day to day breeding outcomes, but worth knowing it exists so that when it happens you know why!

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 28, 2019 12:51 AM

Absolutely agree with that wholeheartedly! Out of curiosity what is your breed of interest?

HollowbetheInk · Mar 28, 2019 3:50 AM

I had never heard of this, Thanks for adding to my understanding guys.

ObsidianKitsune · Mar 28, 2019 4:16 AM

I've heard of something similar in Chinese Cresteds, where the hairless gene is rather close to the one that controls teeth. You can tell a hairless Crested by counting it's teeth, since there are a set that it is either completely missing or only some are missing, and most tend to have bad mouths as it is. But didn't know there was such a thing with horses!

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 28, 2019 5:05 AM

Huh! I have a friend who breeds and shows chinese crested.. I am going to ask her about that! I had no idea about Chinese crested having the hairless gene go hand in hand with the teeth gene.

Ammit · Mar 28, 2019 11:12 AM

You guys sorted it but just chiming in to say YUP! it's in the game. :)

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 28, 2019 4:09 PM

Thanks for the input Ammit! It is appreciated!

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 28, 2019 7:10 PM

@Kintara, This is ironic! The genetic group I am on just posted about a suspected roan linkage break today in a quarter horse mare. Sire was a blue roan and dam is blue roan. The mare in question had a red roan filly last year by a sorrel stud. Are you involved with Equine Color Genetics on FB? If so, check it out- they are discussing it as either a link breakage or de novo mutation (possibly KIT or an untestable white pattern).

HunterUnderSaddleGirl · Mar 30, 2019 5:10 AM

Huh... I (think) I get it, and I think it makes sense, but I need to sleep on it!

So E in linked to roan, or is that an example to help understand the concept? I have a stallion that is Ee aa Kitr Kitto, so if that's true I totally need to go exploring now!

This is so awesome! Someone needs to let me borrow 120,000$ so I can go to Colorado State and enroll in their equine genetics program.

HunterUnderSaddleGirl · Mar 30, 2019 5:13 AM

:0

I know that I can't really account for what the mares have, but I have (1) foal that did not get an E, that is roan

(offspring of the one stallion I was talking about)

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=1&status=any&ageg=&agel=&agee=&erag=&eral=&erae=&heightg=&heightl=&heighte=&boneg=&bonel=&bonee=&f_basic=none&f_adv=none&f_limit=25&stallion=1&mare=1&gelding=1&spayedmare=1&bty=1&lined=lined&foundation=1&name=&name_lm=like&color=&color_lm=like&owner=&owner_lm=like&breeder=&breeder_lm=like&sire=1411467&sire_lm=like&dam=&dam_lm=like&barn=&barn_lm=like&pasture=&past_lm=like&tattoo=&tat_lm=like&tat_and=and&club=&bc_lm=like&bc_and=and&e1=&e2=2&a1=&a4=&a2=&a3=&f1=&f2=&p1=&p2=&s1=&s2=&s3=&c1=&c2=&c3=&d1=&d3=&d2=&g1=&g2=&ch1=&ch2=&z1=&z2=&sa2=&sa1=&mu2=&mu1=&chn2=&chn1=&kit1=&kit2=&kit3=1&kit4=&kit5=&kit6=&kit10=&kit11=&kit12=&kit7=&kit8=&kit9=&sp1=&sp2=&sp3=&spM=&pax31=&pax32=&rb1=&rb2=&o1=&o2=&l1=&l2=&ice1=&icei=&ice2=&ice3=&ice4=&ice5=&ice6=&ice7=&ice8=&ice9=&ice10=&ice11=&ice12=&ice13=&ice14=&ice15=&nexn=&nexx=&nexr=&nexg=&nexb=&nexw=&rainr=&rainwt=&rainpl=&raint=&rainna=&brindle1=1&brindle2=1&wf1=1&wf2=1&wf3=1&wf4=1&wf5=1&wf6=1#key-filters

But 3 pages with roan AND E!

http://hj2.huntandjump.com/adv_search.php?runsearch=1&status=any&ageg=&agel=&agee=&erag=&eral=&erae=&heightg=&heightl=&heighte=&boneg=&bonel=&bonee=&f_basic=none&f_adv=none&f_limit=25&stallion=1&mare=1&gelding=1&spayedmare=1&bty=1&lined=lined&foundation=1&name=&name_lm=like&color=&color_lm=like&owner=&owner_lm=like&breeder=&breeder_lm=like&sire=1411467&sire_lm=like&dam=&dam_lm=like&barn=&barn_lm=like&pasture=&past_lm=like&tattoo=&tat_lm=like&tat_and=and&club=&bc_lm=like&bc_and=and&e1=&e2=1&a1=&a4=&a2=&a3=&f1=&f2=&p1=&p2=&s1=&s2=&s3=&c1=&c2=&c3=&d1=&d3=&d2=&g1=&g2=&ch1=&ch2=&z1=&z2=&sa2=&sa1=&mu2=&mu1=&chn2=&chn1=&kit1=&kit2=&kit3=1&kit4=&kit5=&kit6=&kit10=&kit11=&kit12=&kit7=&kit8=&kit9=&sp1=&sp2=&sp3=&spM=&pax31=&pax32=&rb1=&rb2=&o1=&o2=&l1=&l2=&ice1=&icei=&ice2=&ice3=&ice4=&ice5=&ice6=&ice7=&ice8=&ice9=&ice10=&ice11=&ice12=&ice13=&ice14=&ice15=&nexn=&nexx=&nexr=&nexg=&nexb=&nexw=&rainr=&rainwt=&rainpl=&raint=&rainna=&brindle1=1&brindle2=1&wf1=1&wf2=1&wf3=1&wf4=1&wf5=1&wf6=1

This is SO awesome!

23 with toby and E.

41 with toby and ee

kintara · Mar 30, 2019 12:11 PM

Oh I missed that @TheFoggyMoors, I'll have to check it out, yes I'm on the FB group!

DragonRun · Mar 30, 2019 1:04 PM

This explains so much! One of my stallions is eE KitmKitW8. All his foals that I have looked at are either eKitm or EKitW8. I will have to pay more attention to which gene I GMT to make sure I get the linkages correct. Up until now, I did not understand that the linkages existed so GMTing has been random for me. I just assumed every gene was random 50/50. In this case I got them reversed from what I would have wanted. Now I need to go through my other stallions and check it out. Love this game!

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 30, 2019 1:36 PM

@HunterUnderSaddleGirl, KIT (the loci where roan, tobiano, and some spotting patterns are, etc) is linked to extension yes! I only used roan as an example as that is one of the things i am breeding for in-game. That said, KIT, if heterozygous (ex: KIt Kit^Rn: one copy of roan) could be attached either 1 of the Extension, regardless of dominance. In your stud’s case, yes the copy of roan is linked to dominant E and tobiano is linked to recessive e.

**Just to clarify for other readers, it could be the reverse in other cases (tobi attached to E and roan to e). looking at progeny will help determine which is linked to which. This includes the other KIT mutations**

The 1 offspring with e and roan- the mare contributed the roan and her roan is linked to her e. The stud did not pass on a E (and its linked roan) and instead an e (which is linked to tobiano) so you had a red roan(from mare) tobiano(from sire) foal.

I hope this is helpful and makes sense! You have lovely examples that also prove that KIT and extension are indeed linked on the game.

@DragonRun, I am so glad this clarifies things for you! Playing with genetics is so much fun!

Seaswell · Mar 30, 2019 3:19 PM

...and now I have to go through my studs' foals to see who is throwing the right mixes.

Every time you guys teach me something I have to cull. :P

BlackWyld · Mar 31, 2019 3:59 PM

This just blew my little mind when I finally was able to wrap my head around it. @-)

I never really noticed because most of my studs are Hom EE. (Aaaaaannd I am a total genetics n00b.)

I was able to see it on my Hidden Gates stallion because I made him "Ee" so he could still potentially throw liver foals.

All his offspring that inherited his "E" also inherited his W3 and all his "e" offspring carry his KitM.

So is "link breakage" something that occures when the foal inherits the opposite gene? In the case of my guy a foal with "E" inherits KitM?

And, in the game, is the linkage always sequential?.... as in the sire's alleles (the first of the pair) for Extension and Kit will always be linked and the dam's alleles (second of the pair) always be linked?

FallenShadows714 · Mar 31, 2019 4:38 PM

So what happens when there is no Extension but kit patterns? Is it just a random inheritance then? I only ask because my even lines are livers so I don’t use horses with extension (unless they are Freaky Fridays).

Stud in question

RS Dun Stop Believin

Maribo · Mar 31, 2019 4:44 PM

@FallenShadows714 Extension is still linked even if your horse is ee.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 31, 2019 4:51 PM

@Maribo Ah ok, so it still stays true to the first allele extension and first allele Kit, second allele extension and second allele Kit?

TheFoggyMoors · Mar 31, 2019 6:23 PM

@BlackWyld- Yep you got it! Using your stallion as an example where E is linked to KIT-W3 and e is linked to KIT-M, if the foal inherits E from the sire, foal will also inherit KIT-W3. IF sire passes e to foal, foal will inherit KIT-M. Link break occurs when the stud passes his E but the KIT alleles are switched which results in foal getting a KIT-M.

If your Hidden Gate stallion's gentotype is written out, it would look like this (and I took some liberties here with agouti status: I am just guessing as I don't know which stud you are using) and I used a hypothetical red mare with no extra patterning as the dam.

Sire: Ee aa KIT-W3 KIT-M (black horse with W3 and M)
Dam: ee aa KIT KIT (red horse with no spotting pattern)

There is a 50% chance of foal being black and 50% being red (chestnut, sorrel, whatever you want to label it). This applies to every cross. You could roll the dice and get 50 red foals in a row then roll the dice again and get a black.

The sire's E is linked to W3 and e is linked to M (as proven through your stud's offspring).

The dam does not have any KIT mutations so will not contribute any patterning.

You mate the stallion and mare together 3 times and produce the following:

Foal 1: Ee aa KIT-W3 KIT (black foal with W3 pattern) Sire gave his E and its linked W3 and and recessive agouti (a). Dam gave an e and recessive agouti (a).

Foal 2: Ee aa KIT-W3 KIT (black foal with W3 pattern) Sire gave his E and its linked W3 and and recessive agouti (a). Dam gave an e and recessive agouti (a).

Foal 3: ee KIT-M KIT (red foal with M pattern) Sire gave his e and its linked M and recessive agouti (a). Dam gave an e and recessive agouti (a).

With me so far? I hope so! :-D

Now suppose a 4th foal is born: you pay the 100HB for genetic testing and it comes back as:
Ee aa KIT-M KIT. The sire contributed his E and a but instead of W3 as expected, M was contributed. You could reasonably say link breakage has occurred in this case then.

Another thing to remember- extension and KIT linkage is not gender exclusive. Both sire and dam can contribute different patterns so if you get a foal that doesn't seem to follow the inheritance rules, I would check BOTH sire and dam closely.

I apologize for the long winded explanation but I hope this is helpful in helping yall visualize how they all go together. If any of it is confusing, please ping me and I'll draw pictures or explain a different way!

I have not looked at many horses to confirm but it does appears that the alleles for Extension and KIT are
sequential. Take it with a grain of salt but it appears that the 1st allele for extension is paired with the 1st allele for KIT and the 2nd allele for extension is paired with the 2nd allele for KIT.

BlackWyld · Mar 31, 2019 8:01 PM

That was an awesome explanation!
Thank you! :D

Lallyhop · Apr 30, 2019 4:18 PM

Ammit, you beautiful, wonderful goddess, you never cease to amaze! The amount of effort you put into making this game so realistic is mind-boggling! :x

Members log in here:
Username:
Password:
By hitting the above you signify that you agree with our rules and conditions.
Forgot your password?

HGG Community Forums

Join our discord server!

Howdy, Stranger!

Categories

In this Discussion

Join our discord server!

Enlarge Your Pastures

Reminders!

Vacation GT Sale!