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CoppiLane · Feb 11, 2019 10:58 PM

How can you tell if hidden genes are hom vs Het? I see a lot of posts selling these, and are somehow able to tell which they are

NowandForever · Feb 12, 2019 12:14 AM

It depends on the gene and by looking at the horse's pedigree.

DP will make a horse darker (and if you have 3 darkening genes on a chestnut you get Liver: so a horse with 1 Sooty that is Liver must be hom DP, a horse with 2 Sooty that is Liver is het DP [or 2 of Sooty and DP makes a Liver look Black]). DP does affect Bay but I'm not good with telling them apart. Also DP and Sooty on a Palomino makes them Chocolate Palomino. It does not affect Black.

GP only shows on Bay and makes the tail end in white.

KP only shows if a horse has 2 Kit genes and is hom KP. It gives white 'clouds'.

Snowflake only shows if a horse is hom snowflake and has Lp. It gives a horse 'snowflakes'.

SpryOfJune · Feb 12, 2019 12:23 AM

I keep finding mares this month with hidden PATN1. I'm curious, myself!

SandycreekFarm · Feb 12, 2019 12:48 AM

There is no way of knowing if a horse carries PATN1 if it does not also carry Llp, because PATN1 is only reported for horses with Llp, I believe.

When Ammit first introduced GP, heterozygous GP bays showed a couple of small white flecks in the mane and their tails were somewhat grayish. I don't breed for GP, so I don't know if that is still the case.

Snowflake and DP can occur in created horses and be hidden until other genetic factors reveal it in a foal. I don't think that GP and KP are ever present in created horses, but I could be wrong.

Cheers · Feb 12, 2019 2:01 AM

That’s correct, Sandy, GP and KP are never present in the game spontaneously. You have to add them to foundations or buy into existing lines.

This guy is a pretty typical representation of Gulastra Plume with his white tail tip. He has no Splash and no other pattern which would give him a white tail tip.

Origin of Daintree JJDtt3

Cheers · Feb 12, 2019 2:09 AM

As for knowing whether you have a horse that is Hom or Het for a hidden gene, it usually has to do with pedigree. For instance, I know every foal from Origin of Daintree has to be at least het for GP. If I breed him to other GP or GP carrier mares, some of his foals will be Hom and have the white tail tip too, but all will carry the gene. So I will mark all of his babies as GP in my herd.

*please note foals will not display the white tail tip even if they are homozygous for GP. However, eligible foals WILL be registerable in the Breeders Club.

If you have more questions, or if we haven’t done a good enough job explaining, please say so. I can try to give a more complete explanation for one of the possible hidden genes with visual examples. GP, KP and Snowflake get hard because they require more than just the homozygous Hidden gene to express—they only express when extra conditions are met, yet may still be homozygous for or carriers of the gene... this is how you occasionally get people posting a grn 8 or 9 KP horse with no obvious KP for many generations back in the pedigree. Somehow there will be a few carriers back in the foundation line of both sire and dam and it’s just quietly crept down the line without ever meeting the criteria for expression...

supersarah · Feb 12, 2019 2:17 AM

If a solid horse has an appaloosa foal with patN1, you can say that it has hidden patN1. left side for sire and right side for mare.

the sire of this foal is not appaloosa but he carries at least one copy of patN1 because he passed it on to the foal

iiw10hzwild3750451bay2g

all horses carry patN1 or pat+ but it is only visable with the appaloosa [lp] gene present.

CoppiLane · Feb 12, 2019 2:41 AM

Thank you everyone for your information, It’s helped a lot, but still seems kind of confusing :)) so if I wanted to breed for snowflake, would the hom and be the only ones expressed?

Wolvevenfrosst · Feb 12, 2019 2:47 AM

Yes, I have a somewhat (lol) great example of this. My dude Glittered from Spook is Het Snowflake. My girl One Lucky Filly is also Het Snowflake. I had NO IDEA that they were until I got Sweet Jimmny HELLO.

Glittered from Spook

This girl is also a great example at being able to get Het Snowflake creates, as she is one.

One Lucky Filly

Sweet Jimmny HELLO

CoppiLane · Feb 12, 2019 3:38 AM

Wolvevenfrosst, yes thank you!! Visuals really help me, and this is a great example!

NowandForever · Feb 12, 2019 4:50 AM

Here's some examples of KP. All hom KPs that show the markings are able to be entered in the KP breeders club. Those that are het KP or hom KP but don't have 2 Kit genes cannot be entered.

My KP herd started by accident/surprise. I breed by bootstrapping and my main stallion turned out to be het KP. I was very surprised when I got the first KP foal. Now I have a bunch because I have bred closely related horses back together but I have also identified a few carriers that I purchased from others.

hom KP with Minimal White Factor

NaF Why Not Bandit KP

Extensive WF

NaF Not a Tarnished Penny

Medium WF but large KP clouds:

NaF Got No Champagne KP

Medium WF with very small KP clouds:

NaF Faded Chance KP

3700883

It really shows on dark colors:

NaF Merle Girl kp

But very hard to see on light/white horses:

2924983

My original KP carrier stallion doesn't have any obvious KP horses in the close pedigree but I later found out that many horses from his breeder are KP carriers.

NaF Why Not

CoppiLane · Feb 12, 2019 3:23 PM

Wow, it’s amazing to see how they might still carry it without any expression! Your horses are all beautiful!

Lallyhop · Feb 12, 2019 8:03 PM

Usually, if someone says "x horse is het for x hidden gene", it's because either:
A: one parent is hom
B: the horse had a hom foal
C: one parent is het and they GMTd the horse to make certain they got it from their parent.

Otherwise, you can't know for certain they're a carrier. If a parent is het, they'll sometimes note that by saying "there's a chance this horse is het", but 50/50 is as certain as you can be.

HTRanch · Feb 12, 2019 9:50 PM

What lally said is true for most of the hidden genes (snowflake, kit promoter, PATN1, and snowflake). Because each successive darkening gene (sooty+, sooty, or dense pheomelanin) causes successive darkening of the coat, it is possible to tell how many darkening genes a horse has if you have an eye for that.

Here are some helpful posts to develop an eye for dp with different base coat colors:

Chestnut:
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/51257/the-ninja-liver-chart

Wild bay (A+):
http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/29821/dp-in-wild-bays-project#Item_41

Brown (At):
https://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/62990/dp-in-brown-in-progress#Item_5

There is another discussion for dp in classic bay (A), but I have no idea how to find it.

Lallyhop · Feb 13, 2019 12:55 AM

@HTRanch Thanks for adding more info on DP! I was mentally excluding that because someone mentioned it briefly above, but guess I completely forgot to write that I was excluding it! :))

On that note, what I mentioned does apply to DP in black horses, since it doesn't affect how they look when het OR hom. You'll sometimes see people mentioning that a black horse is het or hom DP, and it's only because of the parents or offspring they know. Most other colors you can usually tell, though (though I must say champagne is super tricky!)

Edit: fixing so many typos. Clearly, typing comments while completely distracted by making sure the pasta doesn't burn is not the best course of action!

CoppiLane · Feb 13, 2019 5:00 AM

Yes! You are all so helpful! Thank you all :)

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