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Ammit · Nov 30, 2024 1:06 AM

On the discord server, we have been having a long-running conversation about how to make the leaderboards more engaging and more equitable with an aim for a major update for June of 2025.

One idea that came up as part of that conversation was a limit on how many placings per category a single user can take. To be clear I am not talking about how many placings you can get in the whole of the Black club for example. I mean how many times you can place in Black Best Stallion, Black Highest PT etc. Each individual award category would be it's own limit. They are not combined.

I am considering limiting it so each account can appear between 3 and 5 times per top 25 list. I want to be clear that this will have zero impact on how GMTs are distributed. The point of this change is so that more players have a chance to even earn a ribbon.

In some categories, there is only a single player with a top ability breeding program and they can easily sweep the entire 25 spots of a category. (particularly the PT board) While that is awesome that their program is so strong, this is really discouraging to other players who may feel like there is no point in even trying to enter the club. I feel like the game can reward these players while still making room for others.

-I am aware that we have a number of clubs that the foundation board probably won't run if I add this limit, I will probably have an exception for foundation horses and we may have to tweak some club rules on the smaller clubs.

This change is coming as I think it really helps build-up players just entering the late game, and I think makes for a healthier community. Here is what I want feedback on.

1) When should we implement this change? Now, for the new era or in June.
2) How tight should the limit be? How many placings per category should we allow?

Please keep your feedback focused on those two questions. If you have other ideas for LB improvements, that conversation is happening on our discord for now. It will be moved to the forum, once I am ready for that.

Cottonwoods · Nov 30, 2024 6:36 AM

1. I would say the quicker you do it the faster people will get over it.

2. I don't like the limits. What if I wanted high PT foals for more than one of my projects that produce black foals?
-- Is there a way to make limits to individual breeds? Like 3 of each breed? Meaning if I breed light horses I could have 3 high pt black lights and *could* have o3 high pt black mediums too.
--I don't know that limiting the individual boards even makes sense. As the 'big prizes' are for the top 3 anyway.
-- Could implementing ties also happen? That would also solve the equalizing aspect but keeping people happy with not putting a limit on it.

It seems like there are too many ways to equalize things in the game. I know the changes to PT have taken a lot of the fun out the game for me, as I was a high PT chaser which is super upsetting for me, with the amount of time and money I've put into this game.

Ammit · Nov 30, 2024 7:01 AM

It sounds like you are under the impression that this change means you can only place in the best PT category 3 times out of all boards for the whole season. That is not what is being proposed. You can take 3(or 4 or 5) slots for top PT in the black club, and top PT in the light club, and top PT in the medium club. Each category in each club is its own individual list.

There is nothing about this change that would prevent you from winning top PT in the black, and medium, and light clubs and any number of other clubs. Each foal could still win in all 4 clubs it is entered in.

Like I said in the OP the purpose of this change is to guarantee no category is filled by just a single player. I am not trying to change anything about GMT payouts right now.

As for the other suggestions while I appreciate you coming up with ideas what I am presenting now is part of a much larger conversation and extensive testing. Like I said in the OP any other suggestions I ask people to please hold for the future conversation.

If you have feedback about PT boards you are welcome to make a separate post. I struggling to understand what changes you mean so I am not sure how to address your feedback about that. I would love to understand more about your perspective.

HighstormFarm · Nov 30, 2024 7:24 AM

I am neutral about this. Only the top 3 spots really matter as far as earning GMTs go. This wouldn't change which players hold those spots and earn GMTs. I don't see this affecting top players adversely at all, other than they will get fewer ribbons per account. Their chances at the top spots remain the same, and maybe some other players may get a few spots below them.

Also any player who wants to hold over the limit, as hasn't already, will create additional accounts and transfer horses. I saw some "new" accounts in the boards this season, I was surprised, then I looked and saw they were owned by an established player who was already successful on multiple boards.

I'm fine with this being implemented whenever. I guess start with a limit of 3 and see how things go. If a lot of boards aren't running you can always bump it up later.

Minute · Nov 30, 2024 8:35 AM

Considering the change you are making with clones and boosts, i'd defer this one for now and see if things shake up favorably. I know i was able to dominate the Belton board ONLY by using boosted era 0 horses to get my highest foals. I look forward to the competition of all the best horses competing without boosting.

FallenShadows714 · Nov 30, 2024 9:34 AM

My question is, how will placements now be decided?

Example, I “technically” place the top 6 spots in PT in the Dun club. With this change, I can only take the top 3-5 spots. So does the 7th place horse just get moved up and my accomplishments just get ignored?

I literally have no skin in this, I barely even remember to register my horses in clubs. And I understand wanting to get more people on the boards to get more people involved, but I feel like penalizing or taking away accomplishments from those who may have spent real life months or years working for that goal may have a negative impact. And honestly, I feel like it could be a 50/50 tossup of having the desired effect of getting more names on the board. Yes, it may get people excited to try, but it also may have the effect of “I can only win so much, so why bother”?

Ammit · Nov 30, 2024 9:41 AM

That's starting to get off topic and into the larger conversation about how to keep the game equitable that is happening over on discord. At the end of the day I have to decide if I want a game that prioritizes community or prioritizes competition. That's outside the scope of this thread but just letting you know your points are something being carefully considered and will be a major part of the larger conversation that will happen in a few months.

FallenShadows714 · Nov 30, 2024 11:09 AM

So then honestly, I guess you may as well implement it in December and 3 spots. If there need to be adjustments later, they can be made. It will be interesting to see how the changes affect things.

Poppidoll · Nov 30, 2024 11:20 AM

Yes yes yes!

I'm a player who this could "affect negatively," and I am all for it.

My only suggestion would be implementing it after you know what you want to try first for the smaller boards. There were just changes made that could expand MH and Agouti Pro, etc. over time, so it would suck to then have awards stop running in those and discourage people from joining them. (Though that may be a trial and error thing that will need running adjustments, totally understand that.)

Overall I would be super excited for this change. I don't think there's any reason at all for 1 player to win all 10 spots. People will understand how good someone's - or their own - program is if they win Top 1 or 2 or 3 just as well as if they won all Top 10. This just allows other barns to be recognized as well! I think it's also important to note that the people not placing or not winning GMTs are often just as good as those that do. As an example, on a PT board this last month there were a few foals with the same PT but from different breeders. All of them but one got pushed out of placing because one singular breeder took every other higher spot. Being on the LBs does not necessarily mean you're better than everyone who didn't make it on. This change would create a much more equitable system, in my opinion.

Question: How would this extend to players with multiple accounts?

Ammit · Nov 30, 2024 11:31 AM

Right now there would be no limits on having multiple accounts. There will be situations where it's needed to get boards to run so I don't want to mess with that just yet.

pestilenttempest · Nov 30, 2024 12:53 PM

If you are planning on also making restrictions for leaderboards for multiple accounts I would like to know now so I don’t waste my time. Not that long ago you said you didn’t care. But now it seems you are rolling that back. Especially considering we can no longer merge accounts.

Ammit · Nov 30, 2024 8:08 PM

I am not rolling anything back. Right now I am not planning on making any restrictions. That has not changed. Like I said there are situations where I think not having restrictions will be needed.

If people abuse it and it causes enough strife in the community I would have to revalate at that point. I can not make a promise that it will never happen I can only share what my plan is now. There is no possible way for me oracle the entire future of the game.

Just like with the auction and the futurity, I did not want to have associated account restrictions but my hand was forced. I would really rather not, and may not be able to limit associated accounts on the lb. I don't always get to make those kinds of calls entirely by myself though.

ETA: I personally think the ability to have multiple accounts is completely fair. If you want reassurances that I will do my best not to add them I can give you that. If you want a lifetime guarantee I can't provide that.

VenemousGiant · Dec 1, 2024 12:05 AM

I love this idea. I am a player that may be negatively impacted, but I’ve been trying to leave more spots open instead of taking all the ones I can so other players can join in. I stand by what I’ve said in the past- this game is a wonderful community, and we can’t keep that running and building on it if larger players are pushing out every barn smaller than them. It discourages new players and keeps creating issues. Those ribbons don’t mean much to larger players but they do to smaller ones. I can’t imagine any solid reason why it shouldn’t be implemented, and I’m excited to see new names on the boards.

I will say I think it should extend to associated accounts, because it will be too easy to bypass this limitation and will 100% be taken advantage of. I know that you don’t want to have to do that, Ammit and I can completely understand why. It’s a lot of work and limiting stuff more wouldn’t be ideal in many cases. In this one though, I think it will end up being a necessity, assuming it’s possible:/

Hecate · Dec 1, 2024 5:06 AM

I think this is insightful and I truly appreciate the thoughtfulness you show to all players!

ZenCorgi · Dec 1, 2024 7:07 AM

This would be an incredible change. I'd vote to implement now. I'd also say three placings in the same category (in the same club ofc) is plenty.

pestilenttempest · Dec 1, 2024 7:50 AM

Thanks for your time! Considering the community feedback is to majorly handicap leaderboards, I see associated accounts at risk so I can’t see putting a years worth of time/money into the project. I wish you the best and hope the game becomes what you envision.

Ammit · Dec 1, 2024 8:34 AM

Thank you. I appreciate your understanding of the position I'm in.

VenemousGiant · Dec 1, 2024 8:41 AM

We love you Ammit :x I appreciate how much work you have put in to making the game the best for all players that you can

Ammit · Dec 2, 2024 10:21 PM

Thank you so much to everyone who provided feedback on this. We have had a few days and the flow of comments has really calmed down.

Bluegrass was strongly in favor of adding this in right now and at a limit of 3 per account. Forest was mostly neutral and more concerned with how associated accounts would be handled. Mesa leaned toward waiting and having 5 per account.

Combining the feedback of all servers I have landed on the following:
-This will be implemented right now. A lot of players are very intent about this, much more so than the people who suggested waiting. I personally think it sets us up for more informed conversations about the June update as well.
-I will add to the club rules a request for players to limit themselves to 2 accounts per club. It is easy enough if you have more than 2 accounts to just focus/keep entries on the different accounts to different clubs. I have done this with my test accounts in the past and it works well.
-We will be starting with a limit of 5 placings per account per category. This is to help small servers like mesa run, prevent altering the payout on the limited-era clubs, and give more transition time to help smaller clubs/servers adjust.

I am going to roll out the limit of 5 placings per club. I expect pretty rapidly to be making tweaks to help small clubs run, so don't panic if you see clubs with not enough horses. We have over three weeks to massage things and make sure as many can run as possible.

It may help some people to think of it like this: You can have an unlimited number of horses entered in a breed register, but you can only nominate a limited number of horses you own for horse of the year. The game is doing the same thing, picking your best horses and submitting them for lb contention. Everything is just handled automatically.

Ammit · Dec 2, 2024 10:27 PM

Forgot to add: I am also allowing fantasy horses in all the size-specific clubs.

VenemousGiant · Dec 3, 2024 12:40 PM

This is fantastic and very well thought out, thank you Ammit!

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