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Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 7:21 AM

This is a chunky update and one I think will be very exciting for everyone, even those without premium upgrades!

First what changes are for everyone?
You will now notice that the create a horse page no longer has toggles for height and weight. There is now a drop-down telling you what breeds you can create instead. If you don't have an upgrade or never set up your breed name, it will say "National Riding Horse, National Sport Pony, etc." If you have set up your default breed you will instead see "Mybreedname Riding Horse, Mybreedname Sport Pony, etc."

I am uncertain if this setup is going to cause misclicks but it is how I am able to get this working at the moment. If it becomes an issue I will update how the form works.

Also, regardless of your upgrade level, if you breed together two horses of the same breed (other than the default National breed) the foal will be born that breed AND be automatically assigned that breed's tattoo at birth.

Breeding will now tell you what breed your foal is at birth.

What has changed for basic upgrade users?
Instead of "National" you will now see your breed name on the create a horse page. You can set a default tattoo for your breed and all your new creates and foals born of that breed will automatically gain that tattoo.

What has changed for premium upgrade users?
If you have a premium upgrade head to Member Home >> Account and Stable Management >> Manage Stable Settings. From this page, you can found new breeds, and set the name, rules and tattoo for that breed. Please note that you must set up a name and a bone weight rule before you can use this breed in game. It cost 10 IVs to found a new breed. The initial name setup is free, and the price is 1 IV per name change after that.

With these new breeds, you can give each of your lines a unique breed name to help keep them organized and automatically assign tattoos at birth. If other players breed a stallion and mare from these lines together the foal will automatically take that breed name and tattoo, even if the foal is many generations away from your founding stock. **Note that only "purebreds" can be born into breeds not owned by the breed**

Why is the bone weight rule but height is optional mandatory?
You have to set a bone weight rule because of upcoming changes we have planned that will require all horses of the same breed to use the same art assets. Ponies and cobs in the game use the same art assets as their larger counterparts so that rule is optional. If you breed a foal that does not meet the rules you set up for your founded breed it will be born as part of your default breed.

What about my existing lines?
Right now founded breeds are limited to new creates. That is because I want to get in some testing on low-stakes horses before I let you lose to mess about with your more precious lines. You will be able to change the breed of your existing horses next month. (ETA before Easter weekend.) You will only ever be able to change the breed of horses you have personally bred or created, and for a limited time you will be able to set the breed of older horses though in the future this will be age limited.

Other coming features:
I recognize the need to be able to search by breed now, and a way you can get info about a breed's setting if you are not the founder. These things are coming next month.

Breed inheritance rules
Here is the full rundown of breed inheritance rules. Premium users can see this when they found a breed but I wanted to have the full info available for all.

Things to know about breeds:

It costs 10 IVs to found a new breed. New breeds will be created with the breed name "National".
After creating the breed you will be able to set the name, weight rules, optional height rules, and default tattoo for this breed.
Each breed only works for light-boned, medium-boned, or heavy-boned horses.
Once your new breed is founded you will be able to register the breed of foals bred by you, and create new foundations of that breed.
Only horses bred or created by you can be set to your breed.
Breed names are not removed in the event that you no longer have a premium upgrade, but will become uneditable until your upgrade is renewed.
Breeds named "National" are never inherited.

Foals inherit the breed of their parents under the following rules:

Foals must be the correct bone (light, medium, heavy) for the foal to inherit the breed name.
If a height rule is set, foals must be the correct height to inherit the breed name.
If the sire and the dam are the same breed, and the foal follows the bone weight and height rules, the foal is born that breed, even if you are not the founder of that breed.
Foals born to breeds you are not the founder of will still have the default tattoo of that breed.
When cross-breeding, the foal is always born to a breed you are the founder of.
When cross-breeding, the sire's breed always takes precedence. If you are the founder of the sire's breed, and the foal meets the rules for that breed, the foal will be born the same breed as the sire.
Foals will be born the same breed as their dam during cross-breeding, if you are the founder of the dam's breed but not the sire's breed, and the foal meets the rules for that breed.
Any foals bred by you, that cannot inherit the breed of their sire or dam, will be born under your default breed name.

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 7:41 AM

Just a note that right now if you breed two university bred horses together (ie clones) you will get a university bred foal. I am not sure if I want that to be the intended behavior or not yet. Happy to hear input on that.

FollysFantasies · Mar 22, 2023 8:34 AM

I have made many mis-clicks on the create page using just the radio buttons, and I think I like this format better.
I wonder if some mis-clicks could be prevented by putting a "Select One" option at the top? This would force a user to make a selection in order to create a horse, and prevent accidental creation of a riding horse when the player actually wants a draft.
Because of course I narrowly missed doing that to myself just now :)

And oh by the way, this is a super fun update! Thank you!

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 9:04 AM

That is a good stop-gap idea.

pestilenttempest · Mar 22, 2023 9:39 AM

Interesting. Looks like a good chunk of my horses are gonna be university horses now ^_^ should be interesting. It’s definitely going to keep me from using the feature though since cloning nulls it out

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 9:42 AM

That is why I am asking for feedback about university horses in this thread. Check my comment under the op. :)

FeldingFields · Mar 22, 2023 10:10 AM

I see the size rules are currently horse, pony, and collectible. Are there thoughts that a future update may allow for custom size ranges (like between 13.5 and 16.0, for example)?

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 10:13 AM

We may look into allowing my complex rules in the future but that is a long way off.

BlueValley · Mar 22, 2023 10:29 AM

I know I would prefer that foals bred from two university horses default to my breed. :)

BoredCowgirl · Mar 22, 2023 11:17 AM

I frequently cross horses of different bone weights (mostly Warmblood and draft), so not quite sure how that’s going to work out now… is there any way that it could be set up so breeds have sections like welsh instead of automatically not being a certain breed because of size/bone weight?

What happens when you cross two breeds together? Do they just become nationals?

I also frequently buy outside horses to improve my lines… is there any way that we can have an appendix option where 3/4 bred horses get to be included in the breed?

FeldingFields · Mar 22, 2023 12:01 PM

"If the sire and the dam are the same breed, and the foal follows the bone weight and height rules, the foal is born that breed, even if you are not the founder of that breed.
Foals born to breeds you are not the founder of will still have the default tattoo of that breed.
When cross-breeding, the foal is always born to a breed you are the founder of.
When cross-breeding, the sire's breed always takes precedence. If you are the founder of the sire's breed, and the foal meets the rules for that breed, the foal will be born the same breed as the sire.
Foals will be born the same breed as their dam during cross-breeding, if you are the founder of the dam's breed but not the sire's breed, and the foal meets the rules for that breed. "

I think if you use an outside horse crossed with one of your horses, it will be your breed if it fits the criteria you set for it.

Tigeria · Mar 22, 2023 12:22 PM

I founded a new breed and tried to change the name but it's telling me I have to pay to change the name.

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 12:38 PM

@BoredCowgirl see the original post to see why the bone weight rule is mandatory. I believe all the questions you asked are answered in the original post that goes over the rules. It is not good practice to add a bunch of changes to an update the moment it goes out. As I said above "We may look into allowing my complex rules in the future but that is a long way off." but I will not be making any major overhauls like that right now.

VenemousGiant · Mar 22, 2023 12:38 PM

On university bred: I don’t really like the idea that it makes them automatically university bred. I think that takes away the work so many players have done to have their names on their horses. And in reality, all the work that was done previous to cloning was the player’s, and cloning doesn’t change that work. “University” isn’t really a line, if that makes sense? There are lots of bootstrap players that this will probably feel negative too, myself included. It kind of feels like it negates a lot of the effort we put into high PT and cloned lines, and takes away the credit.

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 12:38 PM

@Tigeria I fixed it and you are good to go now. :)

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 12:42 PM

That is good feedback about the university horses. The benefit of having two clones have foals listed as "University" is it provides a small negative, without being overly impactful, incentive to not rely too heavily on the cloning lab. I am not sure I actually care about that or if the members think that is of any value or helps with balance. It is easy enough for it to treat the foals of two University horses (clones) as your default breed, like it does with Nationals. Going to give it 24 hours for feedback before making a final choice.

VenemousGiant · Mar 22, 2023 12:56 PM

I think it’s important to note that people who use cloning heavily- mainly bootstrappers like myself- don’t use the same play style as others who breed from the ground up and cap out at the natural max. It feels like this impacts- or at worst, punishes- those of us who use this play style and favors the other. It removes our username entirely from cloned horses, other than if we still own them. Which is really discouraging and doesn’t really feel particularly fair. I don’t necessarily agree that it’s a “small” negative.

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 12:58 PM

"It removes our username entirely from cloned horses"

To be very clear, it doesn't actually change anything about cloned horses. Cloned horses have always had the University breed. This only impacts their foals. And only if breeding cloned to cloned. I want to make sure we are all clear about what is actually happening.

FollysFantasies · Mar 22, 2023 1:00 PM

I don't clone often, but I do create chimeras several times a year. I would prefer that foals my clones/created chimeras produce be my own breed.
ETA: I'm not usually breeding clone to clone though, so this would have a very small impact on me.

VenemousGiant · Mar 22, 2023 1:08 PM

What I said still stands- it is still removing usernames from lines people have created involving clone horses. I feel like a massive amount of players and lines will be impacted by this, and it’ll be a little more difficult to track what horses came from where. I believe other servers aren’t as heavy on this breeding method, so maybe that’s why it feels larger to me personally, who mainly plays here on forest.
To be clear I’m not trying to be disrespectful and I hope I’m not coming off that way! I appreciate you and your hard work. This part of the update in particular is just frustrating as someone who’s online constantly and has been working a lot over the last few months to bring my horses to where they are. I hope other players chime in with their own thoughts and feelings on this as well. Maybe I am an outlier, or maybe not

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 1:15 PM

VenemousGiant I just want to be sure we are talking about the same thing is all, because your prior post seemed to confuse this unintentional change with how cloning has worked in the past. (I still don't 100% follow your logic to be honest, but I don't think that maters.)

The University breed being inherited is not intentional behavior. I realized it might be an issue so brought it forward for people to discuss that is all. You can relax in knowing I am simply asking members to tell me how they want it to work. :)

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 1:19 PM

FollysFantasies - chimeras are not actually clones and do not have the University breed, so are not impacted by this. (I know it says -clone in the lab)

FollysFantasies · Mar 22, 2023 1:23 PM

Ah ha! Thanks for the clarification! When I went and looked, it does indeed have my breed name. Only the breeder is Hajinc University. :)

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 1:48 PM

I realized the some of the confusion above might be people thinking that if a foal comes out a breed owned by another player (or University) that means you are not listed as the breeder. I just want to be clear that you are always listed as the breeder of any horse you create or breed. Being born another player's breed does not impact that. :)

Queenfisher · Mar 22, 2023 1:55 PM

I'm a very casual player so cloning only interests me as a sentimental sort of thing. Losing the breed name would affect that connection for me a lot, because the duplication would be imperfect. Also, whatever work put into the horse to make it so special and enough of an example of the breed to duplicate would no longer be properly credited, nor from the sound of it recognized when searching by breed despite fulfilling its criteria.
Curious to see what others say ^^

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 2:12 PM

Again to be clear nothing has changed about the clone. No clone you create has ever kept your breed name. There seems to be some big confusion happening about clones here. This is about the foals of clones not about clones themselves.

Nothing about how cloning works has been changed. Only in the case that you breed two clones together is there any impact.

HighstormFarm · Mar 22, 2023 2:34 PM

Okay I am trying to wrap my head around all this, lol.

So will the offspring of a single clone parent be the "breed" of the other parent? But if both parents are clones the breed is National?

Would it be more realistic for clones to be the "breed" of the horse they are cloned from? If I cloned an Arabian the resulting foal would still be an Arabian Cloning doesn't make a horse another breed even if the foal was conceived in a lab. If you want to "penalize" cloning then maybe exclude clones from the leaderboards instead.

VenemousGiant · Mar 22, 2023 2:36 PM

Hello again, sorry for chiming in- I swear it’ll be the last time: I think where the confusion is here is that yes, the clones won’t have our breed name anyway, but the purpose of cloning for a lot of folks is for aiming for higher PT. Those high PT offspring from boosted stock will no longer have our breed name, where they previously would have. As someone who’s working to get higher producing breeding stock, including cloning, the foals no longer having my breed name because of the cloning process is what’s discouraging. Putting my breed name out there is part of the breeding process to me- a lot of breed names are pretty recognizable from various players, so the removal of that will be a strange shift. Offspring of cloned horses still come from our lines, if that makes sense? So it no longer being labeled with our breed name feels not great to me, personally. If we want to keep our breed names, we would have to no longer breed clones together- meaning a lot of breeding programs will be impacted or at least have to shift into a lower PT. I’m not sure what this will mean for me personally, as my own goal in breeding is continuing being toward the top of the splash leaderboard with horses that have my breed name. I’ve been really proud of where my horses have come so far with it! Unless I want to give up my breed name and just have university, I would no longer be able to aim for that due to PT cap for uncloned (singular boosted) stock. This might not be as much of an issue for folks who aren’t focused on leaderboards, but I aim specifically for the splash one and enjoy being competitive, so it does impact me a lot.
I’m also reacting specifically to where you mentioned it as “an incentive to not rely heavily on cloning,” to hopefully clear up previous confusion.

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 2:42 PM

"So will the offspring of a single clone parent be the "breed" of the other parent? "
When cross-breeding the foal follows the listed rules above. It will be born one of your breeds. That would be National if you do not have your own breed or one of your other breeds if you do own your own breeds. Which breed in that case depends on the breed of the other parent. Again following the rules as listed above.

"Would it be more realistic for clones to be the "breed" of the horse they are cloned from? "
Nothing has changed about cloning and I am not changing anything about cloning. I don't want to penalize cloning. I simply pointed out that is a reason why having the University breed be inheritable might be an advantage. I am not going to make clones excluded from the leaderboard. That would be a huge punishment against cloning and I am not interested in doing that. I am not interested in any changes to how cloning works right now.

Ammit · Mar 22, 2023 2:45 PM

VenemousGiant - thanks so much for providing more info on your thought process! I appreciate it.

Looper · Mar 22, 2023 6:25 PM

This is cool! I'm curious about how it will evolve. A couple of my lines are purebred from Rank Specials and one show line is a cross of very specific rank specials. To possibly track them as breeds would be interesting. Just have to work through setting a standard when I make/buy the foundations.

Example:

FrkG5E10390393

ChDG4E ChancesWishedFor

SH Dark Cherry Creme 87

Ammit · Mar 23, 2023 6:03 AM

Thank you everyone for sharing your thoughts. Based on member feedback, breed inheritance has been changed so that the "University" breed can not be inherited.

pestilenttempest · Mar 23, 2023 6:24 AM

Luckily, I’m not super invested in “breeds” and it’s a feature I can easily ignore. Everybody who checks the lines on my horses knows where they come from. I would love to have my breed on clones but it won’t change my gameplay. I’m already not the breeder or the “breed” for the horses I put the most work into. Would it be super nice to “own” my super expensive double boosts? Definitely. But I’m also used to not owning them.

Also, just a side note, super happy you are not interested in penalizing cloning. ^_^ I’ve been waiting for that hammer to fall with all the new leaderboard updates.

Edit: sweet this went up as I was typing. ^_^

Ammit · Mar 23, 2023 6:26 AM

This update has nothing to do with any changes in cloning. The discussion of cloning seems to be causing a huge amount of confusion on this thread. Let's end any discussions about changes to cloning as they are not happening and keep this thread on topic and about breeds.

Thanks so much!

pestilenttempest · Mar 23, 2023 12:41 PM

Also question: do you have to be the breeder of the horse for it to qualify for one of your breeds? Or will we have the ability to add any horse we own eventually to our breed?

Ammit · Mar 23, 2023 12:52 PM

You have to be the listed breeder. You can not remove the breed name of horses bred by other players. I feel like there would be a lot of anger if I let that happen.

BoredCowgirl · Mar 23, 2023 11:07 PM

What about foundations? Will this affect them? Can we remove/change the breed name on foundations? A good many of us don’t create the foundation horses we use to create our new lines. If I purchase a rank special stallion that was created with someone else’s breed name with the intention of modifying it to be the founding herd sire of a new line I’m creating, will that stallion be able to create offspring that carry my breed name?

If this has been covered already and it went over my head, I apologize. I can be a bit thick sometimes.

Summervine · Mar 23, 2023 11:30 PM

@BoredCowgirl It's a chunk of text, and I had to reread it a few times, so you aren't alone! But I think you will be able to do what you want, just not right this minute because it's basically being tested just on created horses. But I did find a part where Ammit said that we'll be able to set breeds on our bred foals next month sometime! :D

Summervine · Mar 23, 2023 11:35 PM

This is very exciting and I think it may significantly change my gameplay, which is invigorating. Thanks Ammit!! <3

VenemousGiant · Mar 24, 2023 12:23 AM

Hello I forgot to come back and say thank you for hearing us out on the university breed issue.Thank you Ammit!

Seaswell · Mar 24, 2023 11:36 AM

While it's fun to set up, I feel like this is one of those updates that's going to take a while before we get a chance to understand how awesome it is. I wish there was a way to set gene limits, but I realize that's not what this is. Maybe an idea for the future?

I don't use the university a lot, but I want to cast my vote for offspring being able to carry my breed.

Ammit · Mar 24, 2023 11:55 AM

As I said above "We may look into allowing more complex rules in the future but that is a long way off." :)

RLazyBRanch · Mar 29, 2023 8:43 PM

Can we edit Foundation horses we didn’t create to be our breed? I won’t use this feature if not because unfortunately a vast majority of my foundations weren’t created by me and I have no interest in creating more when I have literally hundreds that fit my purposes. All of my stallions I bought as plain herd helpers and spent hundreds of dollars of real money making, it would suck to not be able to include them.

Ammit · Mar 30, 2023 4:26 AM

No, but it also won't matter. You do not need to start from foundations. And the mares also impact the breed the foals get. You will have no issues using outside studs.

FallenShadows714 · Mar 30, 2023 8:17 AM

Question.
What happens with straw sales now from stallions? If they are used on mares not from that stallions breed, what “breed name” do they acquire? Do they acquire the “National _____” breed name? What tattoo would they inherit, if both parents are tattooed different breeds?

Ammit · Mar 30, 2023 10:22 AM

Straws work the same as all breeding and follow the rules in the original post. It depends on the breed of the mare. Foals are only born with the National breed if you don't own any breeds at all.

RLazyBRanch · Mar 30, 2023 10:37 AM

Sounds like all the babies I breed (2g) would be my default breed because none of my foundations are eligible to be changed to my breeds? So I’d have to then go change the 2gs every year to the specific breed I want? That’s a lot X_X

Ammit · Mar 30, 2023 10:39 AM

Not if you register the mares to be your breed, and then there will be bulk editing. Don't freak out before the option to update your older horses is even out. It seems you you have decided this won't work for you before you have even seen how it will work.

RLazyBRanch · Mar 30, 2023 10:43 AM

None of the mares can be registered to my breed either, they are all specific herd helpers (first snow, marzipans, etc) that I purchased from other players. I only create horses during events (I only use expro annd RS mares) and usually don’t keep them because they don’t fit my breeding goals. If I waited to only get mares that I could create myself for my breeding program it would be pretty much non existent.

RLazyBRanch · Mar 30, 2023 10:51 AM

An option to edit foundation breeds temporarily the same way older horses can temporarily be edited would save a lot of stress, especially since they weren’t truly “bred” by whoever created them. Even if I had to pay the 3k he’s to reregister them it would be worth it to not have to edit 2gs every year.

For reference, I have 246 foundations. Only 4 of those I’m using in my breeding program and have my name as the breeder. So 4 horses total could have my breed even though many of them I have owned and gmtd myself.

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