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Lethal White Help
  • I bred one of my pastures and the foal between these two did not survive. The stallion had W20, the mare W2 and Frame. I checked the chart and it's a low risk between W2 and W20 but there's nothing about Frame interacting. Was just curious which is the problem so I could remove it from the mare (this was her first foal) to prevent future dead foals?
    The stallion: image
    Primal ExPer


    The mare:
    image
    Mischief Maker RSToT
  • It's still a risk, just a low one. So her having W2/him having W20 still leaves risk for a lethal foal. You just happened to have the unlucky draw.

    http://hj2.huntandjump.com/forum/discussion/13757/new-kit-lethality-and-kit-mutation-load-explained#Item_11
  • That was super helpful, thanks! It's too late to change him but future stallions will have no kit genes other than Roan or Tobiano. But in the meantime, I fix her so she should produce a viable foal next year :) Thank you again!
  • Also keep in mind that the “risk” is relative to how high the “white load” ends up being in the foal. White factor is also an indicator of that, and frame increases it, as does W20. So it’s not just the W2/W20, but the fact that it was combined with the mare’s medium white factor (even possible the foal would have come out with a large white factor) and the fact that it probably got both w2 and frame which probably pushed it over the edge.

    W1 and 2 can absolutely still be bred with W20, you just need to keep an eye on other contributing factors.

    Personally I avoid w20 in my studs anyways, though, because I like actually seeing the white patterns instead of getting all white horses, lol!
    ID 45703 | he/him
    Open barn policy - no closed lines! I'm always selling straws and eggs from anything I have that catches your eye, don't hesitate to PM me and ask!
    Thanked by 1KaschStables
  • I've been weeding out frame from my studs, but I foolishly thought W20 was fairly safe and wasn't too concerned. This opened my eyes for future generations. I'll have to let the chips fall where they will with my foundations as I've too much invested to scrap them. One or two non viable foals from a pasture sucks but it's not big a deal. But going forward I'll definitely be more selective
  • Yeah, I usually get one or two lethals from a pasture every year, mostly because I have things like w8 and w3 and kitm (not too bad but a little worse than roan/tobiano) on my studs, mixing with mares who have w1/w2/frame and etc. I consider it the price I pay for my flashy herd, lol. I'm not usually too concerned with w20 for its lethality, as alone it rarely causes it and is pretty safe, but I don't like how it splashes the white all over the horse because I like to be able to see the patterns.

    Another option, if you like the w20 for some things (it's gorgeous against w3 and sabino when the white factor is lower) is to just drop the white factor on your studs to the lowest. It helps offset that.
    ID 45703 | he/him
    Open barn policy - no closed lines! I'm always selling straws and eggs from anything I have that catches your eye, don't hesitate to PM me and ask!
    Thanked by 1KaschStables
  • That’s all very interesting especially considering in the real horse world w20 is just a color enhancer and doesn’t actually produce color just enhances other color genes LOL so neat reading all the different things on here lol
    ID 53752 Breeding ponies of all sizes and lots of pretty colors!
  • Yeah, it works that way here too! It just enhances the other whites. It's that stronger white that is causing the problem here - it's only a little extra, but enough to push it over the tipping point.
    ID 45703 | he/him
    Open barn policy - no closed lines! I'm always selling straws and eggs from anything I have that catches your eye, don't hesitate to PM me and ask!
  • Hadn't thought about dropping the white factor. Thanks for the idea! I had changed that mare's wf to medium because I wanted to see the pumpkins, but that could have also been part of the problem. Alas, I'll try again next year :)

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